The 3rd Secret
Following is an edited transcript of an interview with Father Nicholas Gruner by Tom Masset, host of ‘Heaven’s Peace Plan’ Radio Program. For ease of reading, the interviewer questions are in italic. Father Gruner’s response is in regular type.
[Tom] Father, as you know, the so-called Third Secret has been published on Monday, June 26, of this year and I have in front of me a copy of the text they released. Perhaps, for the benefit of our listeners, you could give us a run down on how you interpret this, line, by line, by line.
Vatican Interpretation Not Infallible
[Father Gruner] First of all, the interpretation released with the text is not an infallible statement of the Pope or the magisterium. It is a commentary that’s an opinion offered by two officials in the Vatican. Cardinal Ratzinger has been quoted as saying that one does not have to accept their interpretation. Any Catholic who thinks I’m going against the Vatican or the Pope can be quite at ease. This is a matter that we have freedom of opinion on.
I do not accept that interpretation. I’m not the only one by any means. On the front pages of the Italian papers, Msgr. Balducci stated that he doesn’t accept it. Apparently there are also headlines that say there are bishops who don’t accept it. So, as you can see, anyone who thinks I am somehow against the Vatican or the Pope on this issue can be at ease. This is a matter upon which we all have freedom of opinion.
Secret Not About Past
The second thing I would like to point out is that the Secret is not a thing of the past. Cardinal Ottaviani, in 1955, told us there was a prophecy in the Secret. It is a prophecy in the strict sense of the word, predicting the future and predicting it in the name of God.
Cardinal Ratzinger offers a different definition for prophecy; nevertheless the commonly accepted meaning of the word is to predict the future. This is an accurate use of the term, and that’s how I’m using the term here.
So we have here a prophetic vision which is also symbolic. Cardinal Ratzinger or the commentators coming from the Vatican including Cardinal Sodano would have us believe that the vision refers to shooting the Pope in 1981.
I’m not saying people have to take my opinion just because I give it any more than Cardinal Ratzinger’s opinion, just because he gives his, but the facts are this. The vision reports the Pope and bishops and priests, nuns and brothers, men religious and women religious as well as lay people being killed by an army. They were being killed by bullets, they were being killed by arrows surprisingly enough. They were being killed.
It’s not a question of the Pope taking a bullet, then recovering from a serious injury. We’re talking about the Pope being killed in this vision, not by one lone gunman, but by an army of men attacking various ranks of the hierarchy; various levels should we say in the Church and society. This vision then, if it is not of the past and it is prophetic, is something of the future.
I believe this vision is a warning, as the angel says, “penance, penance, penance.” It is providential that God has allowed this vision to be released to us at this time.
Sr. Lucy, writing about this vision in 1982, and I’m quoting from memory the Vatican documents just released, says that the prophecy of this vision in the Third Secret has not been fully realized. So obviously the 1981 shooting does not constitute the end of the prophecy.
Sr. Lucy tells us that in a little while, we’ll be making great strides towards it. She writes this to the Pope on May 12, 1982 and says that in a little while, we’ll make great strides. And so, if in 1982, in a little while we’ll make great strides, now, 18 years later, the realization of this prophecy cannot be very far off.
I think the Vatican has tried to tell us that this is all in the past, it’s over and done with. You bring up a very important point that this is not done with. I was raised as a teenager in the 50’s and we looked forward to the release of the third secret in 1960. A lot of people now are doubting whether this in fact is the true Third Secret. They’re saying that they are going to pay no attention to this. They’re saying this must be only part of the secret.
It appears to be only part of the Third Secret. I have no reason to doubt that it is Sr. Lucy’s writing and she refers to it as the Secret. However, we don’t have the end of her writing and so it does not seem to be the whole Secret. I have found that the common man in the street is questioning that if that’s all there was then why did they wait 40 years before they revealed it?
Well I can agree with that.
Msgr. Corrado Balducci a theologian and demonologist in Rome, has been reported on the front pages of Italian newspapers as saying that he does not believe that what was published is all there is. Almost everyone I have spoken to since the release simply believe there must be more. They may not all be saying it publicly; they are saying it to their friends and neighbors and in their families. They are saying that can’t be all there is.
They have a sense of proportion. Whether simple folks or highly educated, they all know that something doesn’t fit; it doesn’t jive; it doesn’t match. You know the kind of oaths that people were put under to not reveal it — the few people that knew it. It doesn’t match the great care and caution they’ve taken to not reveal it and then waiting 40 years after the promise to reveal it in 1960. All of these things don’t match. Nor does it match Sr. Lucy’s inability to write it down for three months because it was so horrible. It simply doesn’t fit. It’s not proportionate.
It’s like a puzzle. The first two parts have already been put in place. The First Secret, the Second Secret and this Third Secret doesn’t fit. You try to get it every which way and it doesn’t complete it; its incomplete.
Another point to consider is that Our Lady said at the end of the Second part of the Secret, “In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved. etc.” “Etc.” seems to be the last words She says. Obviously, that’s not quite a fit.
The Vision Explained
Coming back to the vision itself, even though it is incomplete, I would not want to dismiss it. What we’ve been given is a very great key. Now I wouldn’t be able to explain this as well as Our Lady; however, since that’s all we’ve been given, I will try to help people understand this as best as I know myself.
First, the Pope goes through a great city. What is that city? That city is the City of God. What is the City of God? It is the Catholic Church and the Catholic civilization. It is half destroyed. We can see that taking place, already, before our eyes, spiritually speaking.
Many are losing the Faith.
People are losing the Faith and not only the practice of the Faith but also the results it has in culture. In 1950, in Western Europe or North America, no one would even think of legalizing abortion. They would have laughed it out of existence. I’m not talking about the plotters or the conspirators; I’m talking about the average man in the street because it would be just so foreign to their way of thinking. But, by corrupting Christian hearts little by little, people have accepted as normal these unspeakable crimes and a lot of other things.
So in a certain sense, certainly their souls are dead if they are living in mortal sin.
Yes, and the vision shows the city is half destroyed and the Pope is going through the city and he’s in pain because he sees the results of not listening to Our Lady. Sr. Lucy tells us that the vision is about what would happen when we don’t listen to Our Lady.
So now it is also described as a mountain. And if you look at Isaias 2:3, it says: “Let us go up to the mountain of the Lord.” This mountain is the Catholic Church, as the commentators of the Douay Rheims tells us. You have here a vision of the Pope going towards the Cross; going towards his final destination as it is for all of us to go towards Heaven. But on his way he’s going through the city and the city is half desolate.
Now we also see another picture here. It’s not only the Pope who gets shot, but it’s also bishops who get shot. It’s also priests who get shot, and nuns, and religious brothers who get shot and killed, all of them, as well as lay people. It’s not by accident that these soldiers pick them out to shoot at. There is a war against the Church going on. It is a war fought by organized armies. This vision gives the symbolism of soldiers and no doubt there are even soldiers in these armies but there are soldiers of other kinds too.
Russia’s Errors Will Spread
The whole message of Fatima talks about Russia spreading her errors throughout the world. Of course, we have understood that to be communism and it doesn’t mean it still isn’t communism because communism is very much alive. Marxist doctrine basically is a doctrine of hatred, hatred of God and hatred of your fellow man. This kind of diabolical hatred just doesn’t dry up one day when Gorbachev declares that there’s no more cold war. This hatred started long before Gorbachev was even heard of.
I understand Gorbachev was in the Vatican the day after this was released.
Yes, that was outrageous! That is a whole other matter that will be discussed. But to continue with the vision, I asked myself why did the Pope decide to reveal the secret. It becomes clear when you realize that it was probably last October, I believe, when he made that decision, and what happened last October? Well, in September there was the Indonesian event in East Timor. The North Americans don’t know this but it was reported in French journals the officers of the Indonesian Army were ordered to fire on priests and nuns and shoot to kill.
Yes. I’m sure the Pope had eyewitness reports. Bishop Carlos Belo was in Rome and he had eyewitness reports of this war against the Church which was shooting live bullets at real live people and they were being killed by this. I think that must have tripped his memory to remind him of this vision contained in the Secret. It’s also then a picture of what will happen to the rest of us unless we listen in time.
This brings us back to Cardinal Ratzinger’s point which he said in 1984. “I’ve read the Third Secret. It concerns the dangers to the Faith and to the life of the Christian and therefore to the life of the world.” At first glance, you haven’t got the dangers to the Faith in this vision but you certainly have the dangers to the life of the Christian, and the danger to the life of the world. This latter is represented by the angel with the sword. If the people don’t do enough penance then the whole world will suffer and you’ll have the “annihilation of nations” that Our Lady predicted at Fatima.
If that’s the result, the reason why is because the angel has held back, and that is by the hand of Our Lady. But if people aren’t praying to Our Lady then the angel’s chastisement will fall upon the world. And so if people are not listening to the message to pray the rosary, to wear their scapular, thus are not invoking the protection of Our Lady, then the just chastisement will fall upon mankind.
So this is both a spiritual death and a physical death that we see here?
3rd Secret Vision is a Gift
Yes, and so the vision in this text is indicative of the Secret. I don’t have the wisdom or the ability as Our Lady does but it is really a gift for the Church to be able to look at this vision. It is revealed to us for our time because it’s a vision of the future, and I must respectfully disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger when he suggests that people want to know the future out of curiosity. No, I think God is giving us this vision of the future and giving His prophetic message predicting the future so we can adjust our living accordingly so we won’t have this chastisement.
That is why I want the people to realize that knowing the future; what will happen and the terrible consequences, are important to them. And if they start learning this out of curiosity and go deeper, they will realize that there’s a real message here for them. If you want to live happily in this world as well as in the next, take great care that you look to this prophetic vision so that you don’t suffer the consequences by ignoring it.
I’m afraid many people will ignore this. They don’t see how it fits without Our Lady’s explanation. Would you explain the end of the sentence, “Beneath the two arms of the Cross?”
That statement upholds the classic teaching of the Church that the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Faith. That is, where there have been martyrs then their martyrdom is not in vain. God collects the merits of the martyrs, and applies, through the merits of the martyrs, graces to the people who are still on earth, for them to come to conversion. So some people will benefit from the martyrdom by those martyrs praying for them and them converting to God and finally realizing the promise that Our Lady says, “In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph, the Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, Russia will be converted and a period of peace will be given to mankind.” Of course, it won’t be the Holy Father who’s killed who will do the consecration of Russia, it will be a Holy Father who succeeds him who does it. That is why it is so important for us to pray, work and sacrifice for the proper Consecration of Russia because if the present Holy Father does not do it soon, we have grave reason to fear that the soldiers, armed enemies of the Church, will actually kill him and many Cardinals, bishops and priests, nuns and brothers, as well as laypeople.
Then why would this have been more important in 1960?
It would have been more clear then. Obviously, we would have avoided Vietnam, among other things, and the holocaust of more than 700 million babies killed since they brought in legalized abortion in the West. It would have been clear enough for people to see in 1960 or at least the leaders if not for the people who are not as, shall we say, informed as the leaders. And it would have been easier to bring about the full obedience of the bishops to consecrate Russia.
Does this angel who cries out with a loud voice, “penance, penance, penance,” fit in the Apocalypse at any point?
When the Pope went to Fatima on May 13th in 2000, he said that Our Lady’s appearance at Fatima is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy and he specified Chapter 12, verse 1, “And a great sign appeared in Heaven, a Woman clothed with the sun and the moon was under Her feet.” I find it very interesting that Pope John Paul II should cite that verse. It’s the same verse that Pope Paul VI said in 1967. Pope Paul VI, when he went to Fatima, wrote an Encyclical dated the 12th of May, the day before he went. He issued this Encyclical called Signum Magnum which is the Latin term for “the Great Sign”. These are the first words of Chapter 12, verse 1.
Pope Paul VI very strongly suggested that Our Lady of Fatima’s appearance was the fulfillment of the prediction of the prophecy of St. John in Chapter 12 that the Woman clothed with the Sun would come.
The Devil Drags Down One Third of the Clergy
Pope John Paul II goes further. He doesn’t suggest; he affirms it. So both Popes are pointing us to that chapter of the book of the Apocalypse of the Bible. Pope John Paul II goes further; it’s quite extraordinary what he says in his homily (see extracts of the homily in Pope John Paul II on May 13, 2000 at Fatima). He gives us a pointer. He quotes Chapter 12, verse 3 and 4, in which the verses he quotes is, “and the dragon,” meaning the devil, “drags down one third of the stars of Heaven.” What is the meaning of that phrase: “the dragon drags?” It is the devil who drags down to the earth one third of the stars of Heaven. What are the stars? Catholic commentators have commonly said that the stars of Heaven represent the Catholic clergy. One third of the Catholic clergy are taken out of the Heavens!
Well, not only apostasy. Apostasy is for every rank. Anyone can be apostatized. But for the clergy to be dragged out of Heaven, you have the words of Sr. Lucy explaining the Third Secret and you have to go back to Father Fuentes’ interview of December 26, 1957. The last time Sr. Lucy was able to speak publicly, she spoke about the devil wanting to fight, thinking he’s going to win. She told us that the devil is planning to fight a decisive battle.
She says the most effective way the devil can do harm to souls is by taking away their leaders — we are talking about the priests, talking about the stars of Heaven — and that by taking away the priests then the people would be left leaderless and they would more easily fall into the hands of the devil. That ties in with one third of the stars of Heaven being taken down to the earth.
Can The Mother Stand By?
That ties in with at least one Catholic interpretation of that verse. It ties in with what Pope John Paul II said in 1982, “Can the Mother with all the force and the love, that She fosters in the Holy Spirit, and desires everyone’s salvation; can She remain silent when She sees the very basis of Her children’s salvation undermined?” And he answers his own question, “No, She cannot remain silent.”
What is the Blessed Mother trying to do? She is crying out to us to pay attention because our salvation is being undermined. Now certainly the basis of our salvation is our Catholic Faith. You might say the second basis of that is our religious leaders. So, if one third of the stars of Heaven are dragged down, then people will find it harder to save their souls. The faithful must be careful to follow those Catholic clergy who preserve the faith.
And also it is important for people to pray for priests, to pray for the bishops, to pray for the Cardinals and to pray for the Pope.
For certain Father. Where will we be without priests? How difficult in the latter times might it be to find a priest. People would beg to have a priest they can confess to when those terrible days come. And we know how important it is to have priests to give us the sacraments. Where would we go without them? How many more people would lose their souls without priests!
There is so much more information about Fatima that the world needs to know. Frère Michel, world renowned Fatima scholar has written The Whole Truth About Fatima. We have translated and published his three volumes in English. I urge everyone to read them to get a more complete insight to the utter urgency of Our Lady’s message and requests at Fatima. Volume III, The Third Secret contains the interview of Father Fuentes with Sister Lucy. It is a key to the Third Secret. Sister Lucy still remains under silence but at least we can take the key which she gives us in that interview.
Speaking of Our Lady’s requests, Father, why is it so important that Russia be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and not just the world. Why doesn’t the world fulfill the request?
First of all, the Pope and the bishops have never fulfilled this request of Our Lady according to her directions. So why is it so important? Sr. Lucy told us in that same interview with Father Fuentes, “Many times the Blessed Virgin told me and my cousins Jacinta and Francisco that Russia is the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation.”
Of course, God will punish the world for its sins and that’s understood in the context, but why Russia? Everything glorifies God; we either glorify God’s justice or we glorify His mercy. Everything serves God. Even evil regimes serve God. And God has chosen to use the regime of practical and militant atheists to chastise the rest of the people for their sins.
There is one way out of that chastisement and that is by converting Russia. But the only way to convert Russia is through the Message of Fatima. It will be achieved only through fulfilling Our Lady’s requests and specifically for the Pope and the bishops consecrating the country and people of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in a solemn and public way on the same day and at the same hour.
Is this what the Pope has planned for October of this year?
The Holy Father has asked the bishops of the world to join him in Rome on October 8, 2000, but to consecrate the world.
The world. He has consecrated the world several times; he did it on June 7, 1981. Then he did it again with much more ceremony, you might say, before a million people on May 13, 1982. And again on March 25, 1984. He consecrated the world all these times, but he has never consecrated Russia in the manner requested by Our Lady of Fatima.
Didn’t I read somewhere that the Holy Father made mention of the fact that those peoples are still awaiting?
Yes. Even after consecrating the world on March 25, 1984, Pope John Paul II acknowledged before about 250,000 people in St. Peter’s Square that he had not done what Our Lady of Fatima requested. He said, “Enlighten especially the peoples of which you yourself are awaiting our consecration and confiding.” He said that after he did the consecration of the world. So he knows he hasn’t done what Our Lady of Fatima asked for. But he felt, at least at that time, that his hands were tied.
When Sr. Lucy, asked Our Lord why He would not convert Russia without that consecration, He said, “Because I want My whole Church to recognize that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that later on My Church will place devotion to My Mother’s Immaculate Heart beside devotion to My Sacred Heart.”
And so in effect, Sr. Lucy, herself, had asked, “Why Russia?” Among other things, Russia is a very well defined territory. So when Russia is consecrated and people see the resultant conversion to the Catholic Faith of that country as distinct from the countries around it, they will make the connection. That will clearly be seen as the result of the Pope and the bishops consecrating Russia.
Then people will see the relationship between this act of consecration, this act of honor to the Blessed Virgin and the conversion of Russia. God wants to honor Her by giving this grace to Russia. Through Russia’s conversion giving world peace to the world, people will say, “Well if devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary can do that for Russia, what’s it going to do for me?” And, therefore, it will be a major step in promoting devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and establishing it in the world.
God Wants Devotion to Our Lady
God wants to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart in the world so many more souls will be saved.
Father, thank you for taking the time to explain this vision and encouraging us to seek the truth, for the sake of our lives and our souls. We pray that Our Lady will protect you as you stand strong to defend Our Lady and our Holy Catholic Faith.
I’d like to remind our listeners to continue to pray the rosary every day, wear the brown scapular and receive the Sacraments worthily. We are, as Sister Lucy says, engaged in a decisive battle against the devil and we must fortify ourselves with prayer and sacrifice. Your prayers are most important to me. It is that grace from the prayers of you and all friends of Our Lady that assists me in this work to bring about the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary before many more souls are lost.
Father, is the triumph of Our Lady, the conversion of Russia and world peace described in the Bible?
I think it is. Read Isaias 2:2-4: “In days to come, the Mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established as the highest mountain and raised above the hills. All nations shall stream toward it; many peoples shall come and say: ‘Come, let us climb the Lord’s mountain, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may instruct us in his ways, and we may walk in his paths’. For from Sion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
“He shall judge between the nations, and impose terms on many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; one nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war again.”
The Mountain of the Lord’s house is the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ. All nations, after the miraculous conversion of Russia will stream towards the Catholic Church — whose Pope and bishops were instrumental in bringing about the end of Russia’s war on God. From Sion, that is the Mount of the Holy Eucharist — for the Last Supper was held on Mount Sion — shall send forth instructions as well as the Gospel which was started in Jerusalem on Pentecost Sunday. The result will be world peace and swords turned into plowshares and, therefore, plenty to eat for all. And there will be no more war anywhere.